0:00
hey Mike Kellen here wanted to come live
0:02
on a special edition of Kellan corner
0:04
you asked a question answer him live
0:06
right here on Facebook uh got Jack from
0:08
Rambling Jackson uh right now and he is
0:11
doing a whole lot of things along
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website development SEO and a whole lot
0:16
other things we’re going to be diving
0:17
into but as normal uh fashion I want to
0:19
get in and get Jack over here to do some
0:20
actual content provide some value um and
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he’s got a very special event coming up
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this Thursday we’re going to talk about
0:26
as well um but Jack I know you work with
0:28
a lot of the simple growth and simple
0:30
estimate clients uh far as around SEO
0:33
their website and a few other things as
0:34
well I believe so if people haven’t met
0:36
you heard of it um if you don’t mind
0:38
kind of introducing yourself and kind of
0:39
giving a little background of how you
0:41
got into uh the green industry here yeah
0:44
absolutely Mike thanks for having me my
0:46
name is Jack Justice and I’m the CEO at
0:48
Ramblin Jackson We Are the snow and
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Landscape marketing agency we’ve been
0:53
around for about 14 years and I got my
0:56
start in the in the green industry
0:58
working at a plant nursery and garden
1:01
center in the Chicago area of Illinois
1:03
where I grew up and um I started my
1:07
marketing agency I acquired a local SEO
1:10
company that’s that’s been one of the
1:11
core focuses for me from the beginning
1:14
and we were getting a lot of great
1:15
results for contractors for landscape
1:18
contractors arborus Home Remodeling HVAC
1:22
and I got hired to speak at a green
1:24
Industry Show around 10 years ago and at
1:27
that show I got a ton of landscap AP
1:30
clients garden centers arborus and after
1:33
a while that became 30% of our revenue
1:36
and after a couple years we we decided
1:38
to Rebrand so around eight years ago we
1:40
went all in on the snow and Landscape
1:42
industry we’ve have over 300 clients
1:45
around the country and I also run the
1:48
landscapers guide podcast where I
1:50
interview snow and Landscape leaders
1:52
about leadership sales and
1:55
marketing awesome I know I’ve seen over
1:58
the last few years the uh landscaper
2:00
sales survey where you dig into kind of
2:02
what’s going on from last year to this
2:03
year the different shifts and Trends and
2:05
know one of the big things that myself
2:07
personally um I love to look at a lot of
2:09
non-emotional data in the industry and
2:11
where the industry is at and where
2:12
they’re going very similar to Wayne
2:13
Gretzky’s hockey analogy he wanted to be
2:15
where the Puck’s going to be and not
2:17
where it actually currently is so I know
2:18
you’ve been really attuned to where the
2:20
Market’s going and the different things
2:22
um but really as you’re diving in I I
2:24
know there’s a few things that you
2:25
touched on before the show that you’re
2:26
seeing are major differences from 2020
2:29
to 2023 and now shifting in the
2:32
2024 but one of the most notable things
2:34
is you know what’s the difference
2:35
between social right now as driving
2:37
traffic versus SEO in our lawn care and
2:40
snow removal companies see some yeah so
2:43
so you know a couple years ago I
2:46
realized that no one in the industry is
2:48
currently benchmarking sales and
2:50
marketing data for the industry so there
2:53
are a lot of great industry surveys that
2:55
come out and they usually have like one
2:57
question around marketing and it’s
2:59
usually like how much are you spending
3:01
or something like that so I want I
3:03
wanted to take it a step further and
3:05
break this out by region what’s working
3:07
in the Northeast how is that different
3:09
from what’s working in the Southeast
3:11
what’s happening in Central and how is
3:13
that different from the West so last
3:15
year we had 165 people take the snow and
3:18
Landscape sales survey and we got some
3:20
really great information and then this
3:22
year we’ve had over 200 and I literally
3:25
just got the results yesterday and I’m
3:28
finalizing my analysis of it to present
3:32
on Thursday so that’s one of the fun
3:34
things is we have our landscaper Summit
3:36
this Thursday it’s a virtual conference
3:39
and I’m going to be doing a whole
3:40
presentation on this but one of the
3:42
things that that stood out to me right
3:44
away was one of the question was we ask
3:47
which marketing works best for you and
3:50
last year it was social media was was
3:55
the top driver of which marketing works
3:58
best for you and this year it’s search
4:02
engine optimization SEO so I’m seeing um
4:06
and and I’ve looked at this the size of
4:08
the companies the revenue that they make
4:11
is is comparable there’s no major
4:14
difference in like who took the survey
4:16
we just have more people but I’m seeing
4:19
that search engine optimization is a is
4:22
a better driver of lead generation for
4:26
snow and landscape companies in 20 23
4:30
and I see that continuing into
4:33
2024 one of the reasons that I I think
4:37
that may be is that I I’m seeing an
4:40
overall decrease in demand for landscape
4:44
services this year compared to 2020 2021
4:49
2022 so we’re we’re a few years it can
4:53
you believe that coid started like four
4:56
years ago so it was it was weird right
4:59
and that I feel like artificially
5:01
stimulated demand for landscaping and in
5:03
some ways people were seeing Landscaping
5:06
on social media and responding to it I
5:08
think money was easier to borrow at that
5:11
time and a lot of people just simply
5:14
bought Landscaping sooner than they
5:16
would and now we’re kind of back into
5:19
prepandemic where you know people are
5:22
searching for it when they need it and
5:24
maybe maybe they’re not as influenced by
5:27
social media to to buy it
5:30
that’s my hunch on what’s going on but
5:32
what what the data that’s my
5:34
interpretation of it based on kind of
5:36
conversations with clients and and
5:39
people at trade shows but what I’m
5:40
seeing is is again last year social
5:44
media was the top driver this year SEO
5:46
is the
5:48
top interesting and I I I don’t think I
5:50
disagree with you by any means uh we
5:52
just got back from a conference actually
5:53
two conferences Expo and Landscape
5:55
Summit not to be confused with the
5:56
landscaper Summit that you’re hosting uh
5:59
but Jim Houston one of the top Financial
6:01
uh analysts or uh folks in the green
6:04
industry actually gave a keynote and he
6:05
actually talked and forecasted the same
6:08
exact thing that you’re you’re talking
6:10
about from the data he was looking at in
6:12
addition I I literally not even planned
6:14
this I got law and Landscape state of
6:16
the industry so like you said great
6:18
publication I write into it uh more than
6:20
occasionally um but not a lot of data in
6:22
here around what you’re talking about
6:23
Jack but but that in here if you did
6:25
read it you take a look at it uh inside
6:27
the publication um they are actually
6:29
forecasting very similar results based
6:31
on their data um so I think that
6:33
correlation between Jim Houston who is
6:35
the original gangster of finances um
6:38
lives out a little bit up by you out
6:39
west and L and Landscape who had um
6:42
probably well over a thousand people
6:44
that responded uh it’s interesting that
6:46
you are confirming the perspective of
6:48
two other private individuals uh sources
6:50
that that that industry is starting to
6:52
slow down um they’re seeing maintenance
6:54
is starting to go up as well but um
6:57
we’re seeing a lot of influx as well
6:58
just in the social area because a lot of
7:00
these businesses are starting to become
7:01
a little more educated so they’re
7:02
pumping out a lot of more social content
7:04
they’re pumping out uh paid on the
7:06
social platforms but like you said when
7:08
somebody’s ready to buy they’re going
7:09
into Google with the SEO and trying to
7:12
find you so um totally totally alignment
7:15
there um so we kind of talked about the
7:17
the SEO versus social role there and how
7:19
that’s playing um but I’m assuming
7:22
through there uh just like Lon landscape
7:24
magazine your survey uh was really going
7:26
in what is what are these challenges
7:28
going into 202 for that the lawn care
7:30
landscape is snow removal
7:32
companies yeah you know so one of the
7:35
things that that is consistent between
7:39
the two
7:40
years but but also has changed a little
7:43
bit so last year 43% of respondents said
7:47
that recruiting employees was their top
7:51
challenge that was 43% it’s still the
7:53
biggest at
7:55
37% but what has doubled is generating
7:59
the right quality leads so last year it
8:01
was 177% now it’s SE it’s
8:05
33% are saying that generating leads is
8:09
their is their biggest issue so that’s a
8:11
significant increase from 17 to 33% just
8:15
in a year so I I again my my sense is
8:19
that the the the the market for
8:21
landscape Services was
8:25
overstimulated by a number of things
8:27
largely though the shift to working from
8:31
home for many many people a lot of you
8:34
know and that’s impacting commercial
8:36
people who are doing you know Class A uh
8:38
real estate Landscape Management I’m I’m
8:40
hearing those those a lot of those
8:42
businesses are really suffering because
8:44
many people still haven’t returned back
8:46
to the office and they’ve shifted to
8:48
working from home I think that a lot of
8:52
people spent more time at home than ever
8:55
and invested in their yards and
9:00
my my hunch is that there’s just a
9:02
there’s less Market meaning that the
9:04
people who were going to buy landscaping
9:06
in 20124 2024 25 maybe they’re going to
9:10
put it off maybe their buying was
9:12
accelerated into 2020 through 2022 and
9:16
there’s just fewer
9:18
customers and and also there’s a lot of
9:20
economic challenges with inflation uh
9:24
with um interest rates with all
9:28
different kinds of things what do you
9:30
think I mean what’s your sense of is the
9:32
market for landscape Services down is
9:35
that what you’re saying that Jim Houston
9:36
was saying also or yeah as we’re going
9:38
there a couple things that I’m thinking
9:40
about it’s funny you mention that too so
9:41
I don’t even I think I’ve got it my desk
9:42
here but um I don’t R not readily
9:45
available but what what I was going to
9:46
pull out is actually the proposal so
9:49
right during coid um I went out and
9:51
bought and um was Kyle Stevens from
9:54
Stonewood and Waters a national
9:56
contractor does design build designs for
9:58
all over the whole United States uh Kyle
10:00
luckily enough is a local guy but Kyle
10:02
came in I said hey Kyle uh working from
10:05
home kind of got this Co thing going on
10:07
um you know I need I want the front of
10:09
the house cleaned up and we’ve got a
10:10
pool in the back so I wanted to kind of
10:12
get some things built out but Kyle being
10:14
the salesman IDs gave me a 3D design not
10:16
only for the front of the house the
10:17
paper walkway the heart the softscape
10:19
replacing the fence and like a pergola
10:22
with the patio area but in the back on
10:25
the other side of the pool he goes this
10:26
will be phase three that I didn’t ask
10:28
for he goes I’m G to get you the pool
10:29
house we’re going to throw in the fire
10:31
pit I’ll run the lines and get you deal
10:33
and by the way if you want to do all
10:34
three phases we’ll do it so originally
10:37
as a consumer not necessar an industry
10:39
consultant I had in mind up doing two
10:41
phases Kyle came in phase three and you
10:45
know we had a couple good years with
10:46
profit distributions in the company so I
10:48
had the money in the bank but as a
10:50
consumer I’m like well if I’m gonna be
10:51
here I’m gonna be stuck at home during
10:53
this Co thing know not knowing how long
10:55
it’s going to last I’m like I might as
10:56
well enjoy it so I will tell you from
10:58
the consumer side
10:59
I probably spent an extra 70 80,000
11:02
probably more than that minimal up and
11:04
above the original job for the same
11:06
things you’re talking about so I can
11:07
tell you on the the contractor side yes
11:10
I think we sold or outs sold some
11:11
capacity in there money was a lot
11:14
quicker especially with um payroll
11:15
protection and different things that
11:16
we’re going through and then the
11:19
consumer is ready to buy but what Jim
11:21
Houston was saying and I completely
11:22
agree is the the hardscaping right now
11:25
if that’s what we’re talking about is
11:27
probably on a decline far as demand uh
11:30
in addition that was kind of outsold to
11:31
capacity but in addition we’re seeing
11:33
that um people are tightening up um and
11:35
I don’t know was maybe aging myself but
11:37
in 2008 that recession we had my lawn
11:40
care company that was the best year we
11:42
ever had but everybody that was doing
11:45
design build and construction projects
11:47
like literally dried up so if we’re roll
11:49
into another 20 2008 recession type
11:52
thing which a lot of people are
11:54
projecting um the contractors right now
11:58
at least with maintenance that are
11:59
creating that cash War chest that are
12:01
going to have the ability to double down
12:02
while everybody else contracts in my
12:04
opinion is going to win um design build
12:07
if it’s similar to 2008 you’re GNA see
12:09
those project-based companies shifting
12:12
hard into maintenance and it’s gonna be
12:15
competitive um if not more depending on
12:17
who actually uh learns from 2008 and has
12:20
that cash War chest but that was
12:21
something I learned from jonath pnik of
12:24
the lawn care millionaire co-founder
12:25
service autopilot I was able to meet him
12:27
prior to 2008 he said Mike you never
12:29
know when these Black Swan events come
12:31
up or recession you need to have at
12:33
least two to three months worth of
12:34
Revenue to support the business if
12:36
everything went out um but in addition
12:37
you need to be able to have a good chunk
12:39
of cash to double in when everybody else
12:41
contracts um and that has saved us twice
12:43
now we’ve had that during coid in 2008
12:45
um in my personal opinion there’s a good
12:47
chance after talking to the industry
12:48
experts in the last few weeks that if
12:50
that happens a lot of these businesses
12:52
are not ready to handle that um and
12:54
curious Jack as you’re looking at this I
12:55
know you were talking a lot about
12:57
Construction um do you specialize or do
13:00
you have data across both Industries is
13:02
it more maintenance design build uh even
13:05
like as you’re as you’re working with
13:07
these companies what is kind of that
13:08
sweet spot that you work with kind of
13:09
this perspective because we’re talking
13:10
about definitely design build part we
13:12
could on the flip side have a huge
13:14
upswing for maintenance companies to
13:15
double down for their SEO and paid
13:17
advertising yeah well so as far as this
13:20
survey goes um 69% of the people offer
13:25
Landscape Maintenance so the vast
13:27
majority are already offering
13:29
maintenance and then as far as my own
13:32
clients go it’s probably about that I
13:34
have I have some clients who are design
13:37
build only and I have very few who are
13:41
maintenance only most of the people I
13:44
work with i’ I’d say are full service
13:46
meaning they’re doing some level of
13:48
installation construction and then also
13:50
maintenance some of them also have
13:52
commercial as part of their mix and yeah
13:56
maintenance is suddenly becoming very
13:58
sexy again whereas you know in previous
14:01
years during you know the co boom it was
14:04
all about design build Hardscape uh
14:07
construction and and I think that work
14:10
is still happening I have a client who’s
14:12
been in business for over 30 years and
14:15
he’s very good at sales which is
14:18
important here because I have some
14:19
clients who are not very good at sales
14:21
and they don’t know you know what I mean
14:23
so this guy’s he he’s good at sales he’s
14:25
good at business he knows his numbers
14:27
and he’s saying
14:29
um that he’s still booked out they’re
14:33
booked out several months his pipeline
14:35
is good but they’re they’re as much as
14:38
50% smaller budgets than they were in
14:42
the past few years so for him they’re
14:45
going from $150,000 projects to 75 or
14:49
the $100,000 projects he’s now kind of
14:52
back into that 50 to $70,000 range
14:54
whereas there was a good threeyear
14:56
streak where it was $100,000 plus so
15:00
very very similar to uh Jason Cup’s
15:02
another really big industry financial
15:04
consultants I’ve been talking to Jason
15:05
cup a lot obviously Jim Houston there
15:07
last week but very interesting you said
15:09
that because you guys must have talked
15:11
to each other didn’t talk to each other
15:12
because what they’re seeing with their
15:14
client base is there’s a lot of guys
15:15
that are really good with sales they’ve
15:17
they’ve kind of extended that sales
15:19
pipeline into next year but the stuff
15:21
that’s going into next year is not big
15:23
dollar value so like you are literally
15:25
carbon copy of what I’ve been hearing on
15:27
the street in the industry
15:29
and then some of those folks that really
15:31
haven’t figured out the sales game
15:32
that’s where it gets scary because
15:33
traditionally those folks are looking at
15:35
really we call that about a stage three
15:37
business bottleneck or hurdle but sales
15:39
you got to fix that and and whether
15:41
you’re doing I talked about that at Mike
15:42
Andy’s event for the summit but
15:45
literally you do a lot of sales you do a
15:46
lot of work and this is kind of teeter
15:47
totter effect that’s the folks that are
15:50
gonna get in trouble we really need to
15:51
be able to go in and drive consistent
15:53
SEO consistent lead acquisition um
15:56
really track those marketing things that
15:58
you’re you’re driving with those
15:59
Services you’re talking about well I’m
16:02
you know I’m glad to hear that you’re
16:04
hearing this from some of the other
16:05
people in the industry I I’ve I’ve
16:07
talked to Jason cup but not in a while
16:10
and uh this is just you know I run a
16:12
mastermind for my top clients where
16:13
people are pretty open book about what’s
16:16
going on and what they’re seeing and
16:17
that’s that’s the trend I’m I am seeing
16:20
it worse off in the Northeast in the
16:23
midwest than I am in Colorado and in the
16:25
Southeast and in Texas so in the
16:28
southeast East I don’t know a lot of
16:30
guys are still doing great it seems to
16:32
have really slowed down in the Northeast
16:34
and in the you know upper east Midwest
16:38
yep and I think we service a lot of the
16:39
same clients without mentioning their
16:40
names I’ve seen the same thing with with
16:42
the overlap um one thing in Upstate New
16:44
York too which is is is actually a
16:46
Telltale sign and this is kind of how it
16:48
happened in 2008 as well is we don’t
16:51
usually get at least in my area we don’t
16:52
get hit as hard we don’t see the lows
16:54
and the highs as much it’s kind of we
16:56
see it but it’s not as extreme this is
16:59
very similar to what happened going into
17:00
2008 uh in in Upstate New York with that
17:04
um things started to slow down things
17:05
were still booming in the other areas
17:07
and then when it hit really hard we felt
17:09
it but it wasn’t as a big of his impact
17:12
so I guess uh really didn’t think about
17:14
it till you started talking about but if
17:16
that if that’s a Telltale sign um you
17:18
know this is really something that folks
17:20
would want to dive in on Thursday with
17:22
you understand the research understand
17:24
the data and like how are we going to
17:25
actually go out and outmaneuver our
17:28
competition um and I think that was the
17:30
key for me in 2008 um we were where it
17:32
was going on we had a game plan we had a
17:34
marketing plan we had a budget um we
17:36
were really particular we’re going to do
17:38
offline marketing and digital marketing
17:41
and go in and and at that point digital
17:43
marketing wasn’t uh as popular but
17:46
really we were casting that digital net
17:47
across the whole entire service area and
17:49
then we did offline marketing actually
17:51
to build route density through Every
17:52
Door Direct mailing send JY couple other
17:55
things but that
17:56
ability yeah so I’m really glad that you
17:59
mentioned offline marketing because I
18:01
really strongly recommend a combination
18:03
of online and offline marketing and I
18:06
believe that when you’re in a lower
18:08
Market you’re actually going to need to
18:09
spend more money on marketing so I’ve
18:11
got bad news for you in the sense that
18:14
in an up Market in a 20 like in a coid
18:17
boom Market you’re kind of just like
18:19
reacting to this demand and you may need
18:22
to you may need to do less marketing but
18:25
when when the market is a little lower I
18:27
love everyday Direct Mail uh you know
18:30
postcards you can Target the the zip
18:33
codes where you want route density you
18:34
can give your people postcards to pass
18:37
out you may need to Market more
18:39
aggressively and a key thing that I ask
18:42
every client is what can your client say
18:45
yes to now in this market and has that
18:49
changed from what they would say yes to
18:51
three years ago um so as an example I
18:54
had a client in Dallas Texas where in
18:57
2021 there was uh plant mageddon there
19:00
was this freeze that literally came and
19:02
killed all the plants Texas started
19:05
importing plants from Florida and like
19:07
it was just like demand up the wazo and
19:11
we literally put stuff on his website
19:13
like we can’t even reply to you within a
19:15
week because that was the truth I’m like
19:17
are you sure you need a whole week and
19:19
he’s like I am so drowning and